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Interview with “Corriere della Sera”

“Cardinal” Muller on Schism, Spies, and Francis’ “Magic Circle”

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“Cardinal” Gerhard Ludwig Muller has lots of time on his hands these days, now that he is no longer the Prefect of the Congregation for the Destruction of the Faith. In fact, he seems to have no clear assignment in the Vatican at all at this time. Recently he said he has more requests for interviews than he is able to grant, and this explains why we are currently seeing one Muller interview after another being cranked out.

This past Sunday, Nov. 26, the Italian Corriere della Sera published the latest conversation with the former “watchdog of orthodoxy” (who, by the way, is a heretic himself, but that’s not our focus now), and it is significant inasmuch as Muller mentions the word “schism” and clearly rejects the idea, advocated by some, that he become the “head of a movement against the Pope”.

Dr. Robert Moynihan, editor-in-chief of Inside the Vatican magazine, has provided a complete English translation of the interview, which he published and distributed to his email list on Nov. 27, 2017.

We are reproducing this text below, in dark blue font:

Sunday, November 26, 2017

Corriere della Sera

Cardinal Gerhard Müller speaks with an even tone and a marked German accent. We are in the Piazza della Città Leonina apartment that was previously occupied by Joseph Ratzinger before he became Pope Benedict XVI, in a building inhabited by high-ranking prelates.

“There is a front of traditionalist groups, just as there is with the progressivists, that would like to see me as head of a movement against the Pope. But I will never do this. I have served the Church with love for 40 years as a priest, 16 years as a university professor of dogmatic theology and 10 years as a diocesan bishop. I believe in the unity of the Church and I will not allow anyone to exploit my negative experiences of these last few months.

“Church authorities, on the other hand, need to listen to those who have serious questions or justified complaints; not ignoring them, or worse, humiliating them. Otherwise, without desiring it, there can be an increase of the risk of a slow separation that might result in the schism of a part of the Catholic world, disorientated and disillusioned. The history of Martin Luther’s Protestant Schism of 500 years ago should teach us, above all, what errors to avoid.”

“The Pope confided to me: ‘Some have told me anonymously that you are my enemy’ without explaining in what way,” he recounts unhappily.

“After 40 years at the service of the Church, I had to hear this: an absurdity set up by prattlers who instead of instilling worry in the Pope they would do better visiting a ‘shrink.’ A Catholic bishop and cardinal of the Holy Roman Church is by nature with the Holy Father. But, I believe, as Melchior Cano, the 16th century theologian said, that the true friends are not those who flatter the Pope, but those who help him with the truth and with theological and human competence. In all the organizations of the world, deceivers of this type serve only themselves.”

“Tensions [in the Church] arise from the contrast between an extremist traditionalist front on some websites and an equally exaggerated progressive front, which today seeks to become accredited as ‘superpapal.’

“Look: if there is a perception of an injust act by the Roman Curia, almost due to inertia a schismatic dynamic might be set in motion, difficult to reverse.

“I believe that the cardinals who have voiced doubts about Amoris Laetitia, or the 62 signatories of a letter of criticism, which was excessive, to the Pope, should be heard, not dismissed as ‘Pharisees’ or grumbling people.

“The only way to get out of this situation is a clear and candid dialogue. Instead, I have the impression that in the ‘magic circle’ of the Pope there are some who are focused primarily on being spies against presumed adversaries, thus preventing an open and balanced discussion. Classifying all Catholics according to the categories of ‘friend’ or ‘enemy’ of the Pope is the worst harm that they cause to the Church.

“One remains perplexed if a well-known journalist [Note: probably referring to Eugenio Scalfari], is an atheist who boasts of being a Pope’s friend; and in parallel a Catholic and cardinal bishop like myself is being defamed as the opponent of the Holy Father. I don’t believe that these people can give me lessons in the theology of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.

On the unprovoked dismissal of the Pope by some theologians of his Congregation: “People cannot be fired on a whim, without evidence or trial, just because someone has accused them anonymously of making vague criticism of the Pope…”

Müller does not see a more divided Church than it was in the years of Benedict XVI.

“But I see her weaker. Let us try to analyze the problems. Priests are growing more scarce and we give responses that are more organizational, political and diplomatic than theological and spiritual. The Church is not a political party with the party’s struggles for power. We need to discuss existential questions about life and death, about the family and religious vocations, and not permanently about ecclesial politics.

“Pope Francis is very popular, and that is a good. But many people no longer take part in the sacraments. And his popularity among non-Catholics who cite him with enthusiasm, unfortunately, does not change their false convictions. Emma Bonino, for example, praises the Pope but remains firm in a position in favor of abortion that the Pope condemns. We must be careful not to confuse the great popularity of Francis, which is also a huge asset for the Catholic world, with a true revival of faith: even if we all support the Pope in his mission.”

The image of the Church as a “field hospital,” an image Francis first used in his interview with Civilta Cattolica in the summer of 2013.

“It was a great insight of the Pope, but perhaps now it is necessary to go beyond the field hospital, and to bring an end the war against the natural and supernatural good of today’s men who made it (the field hospital) necessary,” he says.

“Today we need more a type of ‘Silicon Valley’ of the Church,” Müller says.

“We must become the Steve Jobs [founder and head of the Apple computer company, now deceased] of the faith, and transmit a vision that is strong in terms of moral values and spiritual and theological truths.”

“It is not enough,” he adds, “the popular theology of some monsignors or the too journalistic theology of others. We also need theology at the academic level.”

From his words it is clear that the criticisms are directed above all toward some collaborators of Pope Francis.

“It’s good to use language that people can understand. Francis tends rightly to speak against the arrogance of intellectuals. But sometimes, the intellectuals are not the only arrogant ones. The vice of pride pertains to the character, not to the intellect. I think of the humility of St. Thomas, the greatest Catholic intellectual. Faith and reason are in harmony. “

In the perspective of the Cardinal, a model of the papacy that tends to emerge from time to time, “more like the sovereign of the Vatican State than like the supreme teacher of the faith,” can give rise to some reservations.

“I feel that Francis wants to listen to and integrate everyone. But the arguments of the decisions must be discussed first. John Paul II was more a philosopher than a theologian, but was assisted and advised by Cardinal Ratzinger in preparing the documents of the magisterium. The relationship between the Pope and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was and will always be the key to a fruitful pontificate. And I also remind even myself that the bishops are in communion with the Pope: brothers and not delegates of the Pope, as the Second Vatican Council reminded us.”

[Source: Robert Moynihan, “Letter #64, 2017: ‘The magic circle'” (Nov. 27, 2017), The Moynihan Letters Email List; italics and bold print in original.]

There is really no need for comment here. Besides, the next Muller interview is sure to come!

8 Responses to ““Cardinal” Muller on Schism, Spies, and Francis’ “Magic Circle””

  1. BurningEagle

    They have destroyed the Church statistically. The stats for the number of seminarians, the number of priests, the number of brothers, the number of sisters are like night and day when compared to the pre-Vatican II church. Then when one becomes aware of the polls showing what Novus Ordites believe regarding contraception, shacking up, the Blessed Sacrament (or what is purported to be the Blessed Sacrament), religious liberty, divorce and remarriage, “annulments,” and other doctrines, it becomes very clear they have succeeded (humanly speaking) in destroying Her. This was their aim, and they have succeeded. For the most part, those who are Novus Ordites do not have the same faith as Catholics from before the Council.

    But now, they are stuck with the inconvenient fallout of their plans: they have a significantly reduced revenue stream. Therefore, they are doing all kinds of shenanigans to try to get people to go back to “the sacraments” (code for giving money to their organization). They are trying to make their religion relate to the modern man, without any judgments, without any morality to live up to, without any mortification, without anything naturally hard or unpleasant. Jorge’s youth masses etc. are a good example.

    Muller is warning that a schism will make the relatively poor revenue stream even poorer. They have to keep their organization from splitting for their own survival. Sadly, they are using the tactics of many of the (other) Protestant churches. They make their churches into social clubs with a certain Chrissstian veneer. They get folks to have fun and socialize with each other, do fun things with each other, do humanistic good works with each other, etc. There is no dogma, there is no morality, there is no judgement. There is just Love, and Joy, and caring for one another. In other words, there is just the “Cult of Man.”

    • catherine

      Shouldn’t we be rejoicing that the numbers of adherents to the false religion of the false church are declining? If they installed more “priests” into their sect and the number of their “religious” kept increasing, there would only be that many more souls deceived into believing they were Catholic.

      • BurningEagle

        Yes, for sure. But in the context of them pretending to be the modern evolution of the 2000 year old church, the “hermaneutic of continuity” as they preach, then it is quite proper to show what this aggiornamento, this springtime in the Church has caused.
        And, it has caused a great devastation universally.

  2. jay

    It is crystal clear that Catholicism does not exist in the Vatican II sect. It has come all to apparent that we have entered an “Anglican ” like stage in this on going heresy. Like Henry the VIII’s church it appears Catholic but it is an aping of the true Church. The rotten fruits of the Vatican II heresy are right in front of it’s adherents but they blindly follow this cult. I believe that the Vatican II heresy was in part a chastisement because of the error of lukewarmness but I also believe this was in part God’s plan to ultimately remove the Church from the influence of the Muller Pharisees. WE can be assured that the Church will conquer and vanquish her enemies but only God knows the timeline. Till then the true Church will roam the desert and inhabit the catacombs.

  3. Peter San Paolo

    He falls into the old delusion:”It’s not the Tsar, it’s his ministers!” Believe me, it’s Francis who hides behind his most aggressive attack dogs and slips them on the unwary “conservative” theologians and “bishops.” Until these poor fools in the conciliar church realize it is this false pope as mastermind of this catastrophe, they will never be awakened from their dream (nightmare.) And they will slowly “go under” spiritually.

    • catherine

      Isn’t it rather that Francis has simply carried the progress of the Revolution way beyond that of his predecessor’s as unlike them, he does not care one whit about exposing his disbelief and knows his time is limited to complete the destruction of those elements and practices of the true faith not already destroyed. And as one born and bred in the Revolution and a true believer in its goal to destroy all religion to usher in the New World Order, he is well-schooled in how to successfully use the tactics of revolutionaries to advance their agenda.

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